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My son finally got his diagnosis/evaluation and the dr said that he couldn't diagnose him with Asperger's because his symptoms though aspie like were not "pervasive" that if they were pervasive then he would never deal well with things, he would never be social ect. I guess that is what is set out in the DSM or something as a guideline for diagnosis.
I wondered what you thought of that. To me it's like saying you don't really have asperger's or autism unless you can't learn and adapt. That seems like a load of crap to me. If they had gotten the evaluation done last year they would have diagnosed him, but since he's learning to mimic people and is learning as I very specifically teach him things like "if kids say hello to you they like it if you say hello back" so after awhile of him looking at me like "why? that's silly" he now says hi when other kids say hi. Also it seems that dr's have this idea that aspies are never affectionate or something.
I wonder where that leaves those of us who are high functioning or maybe all of us, I mean how many of us NEVER function well? I can't really think of a reason I need a diagnosis, and the dr did diagnose my son with all of the elements of asperger's/autism I was worried about at this point...but it seems like there is this whole group of people who don't fit in anywhere. We're obviously not NT, but according to them we're not aspie either. I don't mind so much necessarily but it seems to play into the idea that we are just making it up or something.
I wondered what you all thought about this, a few of you specifically.
I wondered what you thought of that. To me it's like saying you don't really have asperger's or autism unless you can't learn and adapt. That seems like a load of crap to me. If they had gotten the evaluation done last year they would have diagnosed him, but since he's learning to mimic people and is learning as I very specifically teach him things like "if kids say hello to you they like it if you say hello back" so after awhile of him looking at me like "why? that's silly" he now says hi when other kids say hi. Also it seems that dr's have this idea that aspies are never affectionate or something.
I wonder where that leaves those of us who are high functioning or maybe all of us, I mean how many of us NEVER function well? I can't really think of a reason I need a diagnosis, and the dr did diagnose my son with all of the elements of asperger's/autism I was worried about at this point...but it seems like there is this whole group of people who don't fit in anywhere. We're obviously not NT, but according to them we're not aspie either. I don't mind so much necessarily but it seems to play into the idea that we are just making it up or something.
I wondered what you all thought about this, a few of you specifically.
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 11:13 AMGolly, maybe the Dr doesn't understand the word "spectrum". -
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 11:27 AMThis remeinds me of my Evil Twin(e) saying, at the top of her lungs, "No I"m NOT depressed, because the website I looked at says I have to have every one of these symptomes to be depressed", when anyone with a personal experience of depresion, including her mom, all agreed, "Juanita is Depressed".
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 12:21 PMhe said that you couldn't be on the spectrum unless your symptoms or issues or whatever you want to call them were pervasive. Like they had to be there all of the time...and then the intensity of them or how they interfered with your life decided where you were on the spectrum. Or maybe I misunderstood him on that part.
I am thinking that maybe it's the difference between being an aspie...and having the aspie disorder? Not sure if that is making sense outside of my head.
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 2:42 PMHe's misunderstanding the concept of symptom and pervasiveness.
Learning to lip read doesn't make a deaf person into a hearing person. It simply alleviates some of the apparent symptoms of being deaf.
After 30+ years of study, I can now look people in the eyes when I talk to them. This doesn't make me any less autistic. It simply alleviates one of the symptoms. -
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 6:45 PMThat's what I thought! I wonder if he's misunderstanding or if he feels trapped by the criteria and the things that he can test for.
It just makes no sense to me to say that things would be there all of the time. I think that my sweetie is fairly significantly affected by his aspergers but most times he can look me in the eye and be touched by me, I'm the only one this is generally true of but it seems as if by the dr's standards he wouldn't have aspergers because when it is just him, or just he and I he is not showing those symptoms therefore they are not there all of the time.
though really I think the part that bothers me most about the information I read or hear about aspies and autistics is how many people who should know better claim that we have no empathy and can not connect with people.
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 7:52 PMI'm writing because I read the post about your son's lack of diagnosis. The doctors are not all the same, so that some may be more or less likely to put it in writing. Put that a person is Aspie in writing. They do face pressures, and can't diagnose everyone just because someone thinks they have something. If they could do that, they would have had to deal with endless med students who read textbooks and suddenly decide they are suffering from mercury poisoning or some rare disease.
And you have to decide the reason why YOU want a diagnosis for your son. How it will affect you, your family, and your son, now and in the future.
The part where you say "We're obviously not NT, but according to them we're not aspie either." resonated within me. It is a quest to find out what it is that we are. We want to know why we are like we are, and once we know, then we can figure out how best to address it.
For the same reasons we would seek out a doctor for a side pain. Or a rash. You want to know what it is, and what to do about it. So you get a diagnosis of a cracked rib and know to rest. You get a diagnosis of poison ivy, and know what to apply. The diagnosis provides a reason for what is occurring and sometimes options of treatment.
But there is one more thing to think about, and that can be done outside a diagnosis. In the two above examples, it is understanding how it occurs and what to do to help make it less likely to occur. For instance, some kind of protection while playing sports might help prevent a future cracked rib. Or not playing that sport at all. Wearing protective clothing, and learning to identify the poison ivy might help prevent a future rash.
Those are logical, rational efforts.
But what of social skills, human interaction? There is no protective gear that one can buy. It's not a physical problem. It's an abstract people problem. I believe that some of the problems can be eased in an equally logical, rational way. But it takes a lot of time and effort and a deep understanding of human behavior.
And there is information available on this. It is a recognized problem and it is addressed, for instance, in Social Skills classes.
This first link has a wonderful example, very simple, very easy to understand, right at the top of the page:
maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/pub/e...s.html
Do you know that I was not even able to DO the exercise at the top for a few moments? My arms kept rotating over each other, trying to get into their "proper" position and refused to go into the other position. I had to think about the position of my arms, think of what parts went where, and then try to reverse it. It did not feel or look right. By "think" I mean I had to consciously THINK of what I was doing. It was not something I could naturally do without conscious thought.
This video shows kids modeling acceptable behavior, and that is what children (and adults) may need, to be shown:
www.modelmekids.com/
It is something that can be viewed by you and your son, together. You can discuss the DVDs during, afterwards. Replay important parts. Frankly, I probably need the entire series, including the ones for kindergarten.
This article mentions the effectiveness of school-based programs:
www.sciencedaily.com/release...5342.htm
So even if your son was diagnosed, there is no guarantee that he would receive the kinds of assistance he needs in schools. Depends on the school and what they have available.
For a halfway decent life, we need to know what to do, how to do it, and why it's being done. The latter item does not seem to be necessary for the majority of "NT" people. As your son says "that's silly".
You will need to dive deep into yourself or books to tell him the WHYS of behavior.
Why do we say "Hello". Think about it. Think about greetings in general. While it's a cultural meme now, it once signified that a person was not an enemy.
Hello = I am not an enemy. I am not out to do you harm. I am here in peace. I may wish to trade or barter or become friendly or romantic or simply not be attacked for my presence here.
Right handed handshake = most people are right handed, most people carried weapons in their right hands and their shield in their left. By extended the right hand, as being empty, and embracing another person's right hand, it shows both people that there is not a hidden weapon. There are other theories on handshaking too. Camaraderie.
Yes, it is a lot of explaining for something so simple, but it then makes sense as to why it's done to me. To perhaps you, and your son. -
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 8:20 PMThe reason for working for a diagnosis was so that the school would have to listen to me and help him in the areas he needs help in. I'm not worried about that right now because the dr did diagnose him with sensory issues(as an example) so even though he didn't diagnose him as an aspie, he did give me the tool to take to the school so that they can't just blow me off when I tell them that he can't handle assemblies because they are too loud and there are too many people and too many pushed in close to him.
So he did give me the important tools I think. It's more that what he said sparked this odd feeling of wondering so what are we? Like back when even a drop of black blood made you "not white" but being to light made you not black enough. I have no idea how much that might still go on but it was what came to mind, like you're born...and you're different and you feel like you should be able to belong to this one group...it's the "other group" not the main group but it feels like you are one of them...but then you find out that you don't really fit there either.
Maybe. I haven't felt any "you aren't aspie enough" stuff coming from any aspies I've talked to at this point so maybe it's just from outside?
I couldn't do that exersize because I literally could not tell how to do it. Like I couldn't grasp what was where that needed to switch, I tried and couldn't seem to make my arms work and when I did then I had no idea if it was the same as the original way or the opposite.
Thanks for the links for those shows. I wonder if I can find them somewhere without ordering them. Like maybe our library system has them or the school district.
I have been very specifically training him on social things, and I started having him watch Sesame Street. It seems kind of silly but they do alot of really great modeling of behavior. Come to think of it I think I learned how to be a kid from Sesame Street.
He and I really do both need/very much like to know why something is done. I hadn't connected that with the aspie thing as much as I just did when thinking about that. I've always wondered why people didn't question things more and expect to know why they are done before doing them. (o: -
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 9:13 PMWith a diagnosis, there is no guarantee that they will do anything differently. And they don't have to listen. They may not understand, or they may not even care. If they don't have the funding and the resources to adequately address that particular issue, there is really nothing they can do.
An example: I was tested for IQ. It was in their "gifted" range. At one school, for one grade, I was able to enjoy and benefit from a class and program for gifted kids. But the next four schools I attended after that, did not have any such program. It didn't matter what any test showed, they just did not have anything for kids like myself.
I was forced to fit in, or to be an outcast. I could not fit in, so I was an outcast. As most kids weren't interested in whatever my subject of interest was at the moment, it was OK in a lot of ways to be the outcast. I had no tools, no DVDs to choose from.
Look at the history:
"Lorna Wing popularized the term Asperger syndrome in the English-speaking medical community in her 1981 publication[79] of a series of case studies of children showing similar symptoms,[76] and Uta Frith translated Asperger's paper to English in 1991.[78] Sets of diagnostic criteria were outlined by Gillberg and Gillberg in 1989 and by Szatmari et al. in the same year.[72] AS became a standard diagnosis in 1992, when it was included in the tenth edition of the World Health Organization’s diagnostic manual, International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10); in 1994, it was added to the fourth edition of the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic reference, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV).[5]"
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s
I was out of school by then. I was in high school and college in the 70's. All I knew was that I was perceived as weird. That's all. I thought everyone else was weird. That's the only thing I had.
I think the usage of "Aspie-like qualities" is a good way to explain some of what we may experience. To further define WHICH qualities we have noticed in ourselves or in others, like you could notice things in your son.
For the DVD shows, if they are NOT available at the library or the school district, perhaps you can recommend them? There are many useful applications for those kinds of shows. Dealing with any problem behavior. Easing fears of a child before attending school for the first time. As a refresher on how to act in certain circumstances. It doesn't have to apply to just Aspie people.
I realize that those are rather costly, after checking out the DVD and workbook prices. And, it also says this:
"Each DVD and CD-Rom purchased comes with a single user license.
For purchase of additional licenses such as for school use in multiple classrooms, please contact us.
Products are not licensed for use in any type of lending library. Curricula materials are non-reproducible.
We ship worldwide. Customer is responsible for any customs duties/fees that may be charged."
So they probably will NOT be found at the library. But they do have some free things on that first page, that you can view, read, download and see if they connect at all for you and your son. Here's the link to the page that has samples:
www.modelmekids.com/social-s...ulum.html -
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 9:54 PMI think the laws have changed alot now. They do have to do certain things...though getting them to do what they "have" to do is not always easy. But the things I want are fairly easy. I want to be able to be notified of assemblies and take him out of school for ones that will likely be too noisy for instance. That doesn't cost them anything, but the diagnosis at least shows them that if I did go to court I would have back up, as opposed to just seeming like a crazy over protective mother.
I'm going to look into it. There is also an autism lending library system of some sort through a local group here that I might be able to find out how to access.
I don't really like saying "aspie like behaviors" I will have to think about why. Maybe because I'm not so concerned with the behaviors right now, I'm just wondering about how we fit into society and far more than that if we have or can have or should have our own culture of sorts.
I'm not sure I'm making much sense, I will try again in the morning. (o: -
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, August 31, 2008 - 10:22 PMYou're making sense to me.
Let me try to put it into other words. You don't like the "aspie-like behaviors" because that leads one to think that they are chosen behaviors, rather than a fundamental difference in the actual human being.
Sort of like saying "Being gay is a choice". Every single gay or lesbian person I have talked to have always been attracted to whom they are attracted to. It has nothing to do with a choice. There is no "cure" for homosexuality. And there doesn't have to be. Because it's just the way people are. There's no "cure" for heterosexuality either.
So perhaps what you want/need, is to have the diagnosis to provide the concrete definition of WHY. Why he is like he is, you are like you are, I am like I am. The WHY being part of the explanation that we can provide to others, giving legitimacy to WHY we are different.
That is it not made up. That we can't just "change" to suit someone's definition of what we should be. And that we should not have to suffer or be discriminated against because we are different. Anymore than a gay person should have to act straight because they might differ from their classmates or their coworkers.
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Re: Pervasive
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 9:49 AMYeah...I think that is it. Aspie like behavoirs seems to infer that I'm doing something I need to be cured of or forgiven for. But I'm not, I just happen to work differently on a very fundanmental level. It makes me different, I'm not saying it makes me immune to laws or cultural rules or anything and that is what people seem to shout about and want to say is going on.
I don't need a diagnosis though. I have found the why, I don't need paperwork to prove it. I just don't want a wide spread assumption that if you aren't "bad enough" then you aren't different. But maybe someone does need a diagnosis for some reason, possibly something in their work they need a special accomidation for. If work has to provide a larger chair for someone who doesn't fit into regular ones, if they have to provide ergonomic computer and work set ups for people who need them then it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to need to provide say alternative lighting if their lighting agitates someone with sensory issues. -
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Re: Pervasive
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 10:35 AMDon't think of it as validation for being different. Think of it as justification for getting government money and special attention.
There are really only two reasons for (adult) diagnosis - validation and accommodations. Jury's still out on how much value any of the childhood intervention approaches might have. If you don't need accommodations, (or aren't willing to adopt the stigma to get them), then the only thing left is validation. And I can validate myself pretty well already, thanks.
I don't need a doctor to tel me that I'm male or Caucasion. And I don't need a doctor to tell me that I'm autistic. -
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Re: Pervasive
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 11:15 AMI'm not really worried about diagnosis...though maybe a bit in a more political for other people kind of way for the very reason of then being able to get accomidations.
I think the idea that I'm forming is that there needs to be something else. Not just diagnosis but a whole other thing, a social movement/group. I'll be fine, but I think a social and educational movement would be really helpful for some people. To know why they are the way they are at least to the extent that knowing you are wired differently can provide that.
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Re: Pervasive
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 12:39 PMThe revolution is now.
We _are_ that social group.
By my calculations, we represent probably 7% of the US population. That's comparable to the number of African Americans in the US and comparable to the number of gay & lesbians in the US. It's just that most of us don't even know we're aspie.
I joked a year back about starting "Out Aspie!" magazine... -
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Re: Pervasive
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 1:17 PMYeah that's what I'm thinking. We should get working on that. -
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Re: Pervasive
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 6:58 PMI's peddlin' as fasts as ah can, ma'am!
:).
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Re: Pervasive
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 5:57 PMThere ARE a lot of people already moving...as in being part of a movement.
There are online Aspie communities. One place has chat going on message boards, 24/7. People all over the world. There was a lot of discussion on dating and relationships, so the creator of that site made an Aspie dating site. I think the creator of both sites found someone through the site he created, a mate.
That's a wonderful way for Aspies to meet and chat, online. Many people on that site have far fewer reservations to participating. Because they know that some of the people there will understand. Being among one's own species. Sort of like the Ugly Duckling, where people may have made fun of oddities or differences for an entire life, until one suddenly realizes what group they belong to.
I have lots of ideas for the "Out Aspie!" magazine covers. They end up sounding like Mad magazine or other parodies, but some of the things that I've been quizzed at by passing strangers are possible cover stories...
Image of person squatting on the edge of the sidewalk staring intently at the dirt where there is nothing of interest to NTs in general
Bold print: DIRT! Neat stuff happens there!
Image of person standing the in middle of the sidewalk staring up, totally oblivious to everything else.
Bold print: TREES! Neat stuff happens there!
It sounds idiotic. But in the first case, there was a small bit of sand, and an even smaller beetle. It was making it's way up the slope of the sand. In doing so, it made interesting footprints/tracks/marks. Then I had to think about where it was going and why. And then what kind of beetle it was, and what other beetles do, and what kinds of marks they make, etc etc etc.
The trees? There was a hawk's nest up there, and I was watching it. Another time I saw a hummingbird nest, and had never seen baby hummingbirds before. So I figured out which office would have the best view of the nest, and asked the people in that office if I could look out their window. This was at a college, so they were more used to weirdos. At another school, I tracked down someone who knew about trees, because the trees were very noisy that day and I had to know why. HAD to know why.
This is stuff that the less Aspie would not pursue, unless they were children just learning about the world. When everything is seen as new and awesome.
And maybe that would be a good way to approach the idea of an Aspie magazine. As a humor magazine that is also serious. Seriously silly. -
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Re: Pervasive
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 8:13 PMI can't imagine an aspie magazine being anything but seriously silly. (o: -
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Re: Pervasive
Tue, September 2, 2008 - 8:36 PMSomewhere around here I have two parodies of L.L.Bean catalogs that had me in stitches. It was perfect for my kinds of humor, especially since I liked the L.L.Bean catalogs anyway. The parody had boating shoes. Unlike L.L.Bean, the shoe was an actual boat. And had a drawing that looked like Topsiders with people motoring about in it.
That is the kind of humor that works for me, because of the need to figure out WHICH definition people mean when it comes to speaking or writing.
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Re: Pervasive
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 8:16 AM"I can't imagine an aspie magazine being anything but seriously silly. (o: "
Then you've probably never read slashdot.
Or xkcd. -
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Re: Pervasive
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 11:12 PMnope...I have to admit I've never heard of them, and I'm not sure I want to if they don't have some silly.
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Re: Pervasive
Mon, September 1, 2008 - 10:42 AMThere will always be assumptions. Remember, as you once said to me, it's about them, not you. Whatever they have to say about something, it's about their own perceptions. If they are completely, totally, convinced that you are or are not something, it will be darn near impossible to change their point of view.
And that means having to deal with MANY people that will not understand. I think a good example would be to consider the plight of a person who speaks only English, who travels to a country not knowing the language, the customs, the mannerisms. That English-speaker is still a human being. They don't have a disorder. They aren't suffering from a birth defect or choosing not to know how to speak this other language. Or to know what to do in social situations that are vastly different than their usual culture.
They just don't know. They aren't trying to be different, they are different. They can learn to adapt. To pick up words, phrases. But what would really happen if you couldn't navigate a different country? How would you get food? How would you find a place to sleep? How would you know you weren't being taken advantage of?
Trusting the entire civilization to be good to you? I have found that doesn't work. Because there are plenty of people who will give the wrong directions in an unfamiliar area, just for fun. Rip off tourists, either by overpriced goods or actual robbery/mugging.
And how much time would that take? A long time, to learn to adapt. Meanwhile, you STILL have to find ways of getting around, eating, sleeping, figuring out what the culture uses for toilets. Would you be able to identify the following images as being toilets, as a place to urinate and defecate?
picasaweb.google.com/KauaiSa...87127570
flickr.com/photos/markt...n/1019348408/
www.downinthewoods.com/photos...ets.jpg
ineedstimulation.blogspot.com/200...html
picasaweb.google.com/gavotte...90471282
That last one is kind of like something you'd see in a cemetery. And I'm only guessing in another photo that one is supposed to lean over the red naked ass and legs to wash one's hands. So it appears that one is having sex with the sink? WTF is THAT all about?
Best not to let lads go on their own to use the urinal, take them in the ladies room forever, as this could totally mess up someone's mind:
www.myunusual.com/Pix/Thing...oiletX.JPG
Sorry, wandered off.
The next step is to consider strengths and weaknesses. Not just social things, but how to use his gifts in a way that will benefit him. What kinds of jobs. What kinds of schools or sports or future studies would be good for his specific talents and interests?
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Re: Pervasive
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 1:52 PMI would probably go and get a second opinion from someone who specialises in diagnosing autistic spectrum disorders.
As alot, if not all, of the diagnostic criteria is about observing behaviours, this needs to be done by several specialists over a period of time eg Speech and Language Therapists should be able to find out if he has a language processing or auditory processing disorder or has literal interpretation of language or semantic pragmatic disorder etc.
You already mention sensory issues and I would recommend you google the name Olga Bogdashina and read an article by her in autism today. She has a very good book called Sensory and Perceptual Differences in Autism and Aspergers. In my city (in the UK) they use the questionnaire at the back of that book to get a sensory profile of each child on the spectrum. Believe me, that in itself can be an eye opener as to the kind of environmental changes that could make a real difference.
From a support in school point of view it tends to be taken for granted that Aspies do okay academically. Not always true. But your child may need help during dinnertime/unstructured free time. The school should give him access to dinnertime clubs, the library or computer suite. Ideally this should be supervised by an adult and also involve other children so that he isn't isolated.
Along with possible Aspergers your son may have executive function difficulties or sequencing or planning or organising or time management etc.
As you rightly say, things have changed and the state has to provide certain things. It might be really useful for you to contact the National Autistic Society in your country and get some advice.
Regarding education the NAS should also be able to advise on that. Parent support groups also have alot of info because they have been there, seen it, done it and bought the T-shirt.
A legal advocacy service can also give you information on your legal rights. In some cases it is possible to get the state to pay private school fees if they cannot meet your sons needs within their own system. But they don't do it easily!
Regarding your orginal query, I too am a bit puzzled as to what the doctor meant. My son is diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum and he also learns new things. He might need to be told how to do it and he might not immediately be able to generalise that learnt information to other situations. He also functions much better with certain people in certain familiar environments.
My son is also capable of empathy, humour, theory of mind etc. Not all of the time and not always to the level of a NT child of his peer group. But he can do it and he is developing. Maybe you should get a few emails from this forum and send them to the doctor! Afterall there are many adults with Aspergers running successful businesses for example or working as doctors, lawyers etc etc. As already mentioned it is a spectrum disorder and I believe where the individual is on the spectrum fluctuates day to day and even throughout the day. -
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Re: Pervasive
Wed, September 3, 2008 - 11:27 PMoh thanks! I will totally get that book.
I'm not going to fight it right now. I feel like I got what he needs for right now diagnosis wise. I'm going to see how the school does at working with me on those things. I've been giving it a bit of time, for the teacher to get to know him and I'm going to ask for a meeting. He is actually doing amazingly well. Like so well I almost cried his first day of school he was so brave and did so well. Of course I can totally see it's because he has done this before, and he can't do every grade twice in order to get the feel for them and then be able to function. But starting school was the hugest jump I think. He does have services for speech issues. He scored average on the speech section of the IQ test he was given but when in conversation he has trouble, the speech skills are there but somehow things aren't coming together right, but that is already being addressed by the school so I think the things I need to deal with them on are finding out what is going on between his head and his fingers or eyes and his head that makes it so difficult to nearly impossible for him to draw letters. Then of course the sensory stuff. I need to get them to do something for assemblies that might be too loud and scary for him. I'm worried about lunch time next year...but we will cross that bridge when we get to it.
I feel like he did give me what I need to focus on the school now. It may be that we come back to this later, but for now the focus is on the school and I'm not too worried about the diagnosis since he did give me the components I need to work on the school with.
Yeah, I don't get it. I wanted to say If you people would find a way to evaluate children when they need to be evaluated instead of a year of hard work later you might have an easier time of seeing what is going on with them underneath the coping skills. It really is too bad they don't do any tests that look directly at the nervous system and brain wiring. -
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Re: Pervasive
Wed, September 10, 2008 - 3:38 AMMy son has just started a new school. I moved him from his previous mainstream one because they had not understanding of his needs or interest in how to help him. He has started another mainstream school which has experience and expertise in autism. There are around 5 children in each class with autism or aspergers, depending on their academic ability. My son is now in a class of 18 other children, some on the spectrum, some not. The class has a teacher and 3 other assistants. He has been absolutely brilliant this first week and I can already see a difference in his attitude towards going to school. No more tears and tantrums which I had for the last 3 years!
My son, like yours, is not able to write any words from memory yet. He immediately reads and memorises a book, but cannot recognise any of those words in isolation. My concern is how to address this problem so that he can demonstrate learning and his cognitive ability because he is a smart boy who is unable to read or write who also has speech/communication problems. So I have an idea of where you are.
I have been told that the reason he finds it hard to learn letters/words and numbers is because they are abstract concepts. But what I find hard to understand is that he has a brilliant visual and auditory memory. He can repeat hours of DVD dialogue, and can remember things he has seen exactly. So why can't he remember how to write his letters? There has got to be something to do with the wiring/understanding of what they represent. He also has brilliant spatial awareness and pattern recognition and scored on a percentile of 92 in these areas (which means that out of 100 children he would be better than 92 of them). So the cognitive ability is in there.
I have been told as if, when he gets older, he still has these difficulties that he would need things like a scribe to write down things for him and he would have to be assessed differently. -
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Re: Pervasive
Wed, September 10, 2008 - 8:56 AMOH! I am so excited for you guys that you got him in that school! It sounds wonderful and perfect for him.
I wander with mine if there isn't some block between his eyes and his brain or his brain and his hands (My son that is) because he can tell you what sounds a letter makes and he can see the letter different places, but he has so much trouble getting it from seeing it somewhere through to his fingers. He has had a bunch of stuff click recently so I am going to have to see where he is this year. I have a meeting with his teacher today actually to share his report with her and see how he's doing in class.
I'm thinking that your son might have something between his eyes and his brain too, he can memorize whole movies...but somehow maybe the written symbols or combination of them(words) do not make sense to his brain? How does he do with other symbols? Like perhaps a story written in pictures, or one of those stories that is written in pictures of words that sound like what they are writing like a picture of an eye, to mean I. I wonder if seeing him try those would help you figure out where the issue is.
I also wonder if there isn't some part that just fails on putting together things, like when my son is stressed he can't remember words and stutters or can not speak. I do the same if I am not in the right place in my brain and someone asks me a question I can not seem to get the idea to form a sentence. -
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Re: Pervasive
Thu, September 11, 2008 - 5:56 AMNow he has started this new school I am waiting for the Educational Psychologist to get involved. For example I can play 'I spy' games and he will get alot of it right. He thought that Church began with a 't' as in 'turch', but he also has auditory processing problems too so sometimes he does 'hear' things differently eg. he thought 'map' was 'nap'. So if you don't hear correctly it is going to make things even more confusing. But anyway, he can play I spy. If I point to the word 'big' in his reading book and ask him what the beginning letter sound is he can tell me. If I take away any visual clues and ask him to write down the letter 'b', he cannot do it. He just doesn't seem to be able to access that information. If there were letters on the table infront of him, on of which was the letter 'b', then he would be able to identify which one it was and write it down. So he cannot write at all at the moment. As you say, I too feel there is a block, or some wiring that isn't connected yet. If/when we get a connection I know he will be reading books like mad. But for now he just has to look at the pictures.
The problem has got to be something to do with the meaning/memory retrieval of abstract shapes/symbols because my son also has brilliant spatial awareness and pattern recognition. So, I'm glad there's something else out there with the same problem, but also sad because it is a bummer to have these problems in school.
Hope your meeting goes well in school. -
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Unsu...
Re: Pervasive
Thu, September 11, 2008 - 7:15 AMI'm wondering if picture alphabets would help? Something like Egyptian hieroglyphics, but for English:
atschool.eduweb.co.uk/trinity...bet.html
Where the letter "A" is made up of something that your son can identify with. Not with the picture of an apple, for instance, saying that A is for Apple. But the actual letter made of a symbol or many items.
Ah, here's one:
my-ecoach.com/online/activity.php
Larger image:
exacto.blogspot.com/Alphabet_3534535.jpg
I'm wondering if he would be able to create the IMAGE of the letter in his mind by using the representational items shown in the link. A is not just for Alligator, but it's for an Alligator that is shaped like the letter A. B is for Blocks, but the blocks are arranged in a pattern. If he can do what I THINK he might be able to do, he will be able to capture the image of the letter if it makes sense by being a concrete object. Rather than abstract lines and curves.
Once he has that IMAGE of the letter ingrained, he will be able to compare/contrast the shapes of letters and not only identify but create. I think. Just a theory.
There are a bunch of activities here that you can download and print:
www.enchantedlearning.com/theme....shtml
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Re: Pervasive
Sun, September 28, 2008 - 4:01 PMThanks for those links. I will use them.
I also bought the 'Letterland books' which use a similar principle. I think some of it is sinking in.
His difficulty is also that he finds this stuff so 'boring'. But he also says his work is too hard. I wish schools would try to teach using the child's interests instead of trying to get them to be interested in what is presented to them. That would make life so much easier!
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